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In this podcast, Sam is talking with Jon Tromans of Not Another Marketing Podcast about what Apple have recently done to upset marketers & advertisers.


Jon Tromans:
Hi, welcome to not another marketing podcast where I’m talking to Sam Ovett for a mobile pocket office.com. Now we’re talking about what apple have recently done, blocking trackers and cookies and things like that. That’s upset marketers and advertisers. This is a good one. Listen up.

Thanks for downloading. Now, apple have recently introduced third party cookie and tracking blockers to their PC web browsers. That’s like the max and things, and also on their I-phones as well. A lot of marketers and advertisers are not very happy as it’s messed up their stats and their reports might be different now.

Talking about tracking in marketing can be quite complicated, especially if you’re more of a creative marketer than a technical one. So this episode, I’ve got some overt along from mobile pocket office.com. Who’s going to explain everything in kind of normal speak Sam’s company focuses on building business and marketing automation processes, which help organizations with their workflows and kind of like helps you discover the numbers and the reports that actually matter.

You can find Sam. As mobile pocket office.com that’s mobile pocket office.com. Just check out the links in the show notes. Now I’m going to quickly mention that not another marketing podcast is totally ad-free love it. If you could give the pod a quick shout on social media, give it a retweet or a share or whatever, and subscribe via your favorite podcast app.

Just check out all the links and more podcasts. Uh jtid.co/podcasts now, the first thing that I asked Sam was what have apple actually done, which is upset kind of email marketers and advertisers.

Sam Ovett: So the core of this is apple is basically said, Hey, from a, from a, you know, perspective culture, they said, Hey, we, we respect your privacy.

And the other thing that apple has said is that. What they want to do is give people the opportunity to be private because they’re a business model. And this is the important thing to recognize and where it all stems from their business model, doesn’t depend on advertising to function. It depends on you buying more of the devices, using the devices, getting more devices, using stuff on their cloud storage, things like that.

It has nothing to do with advertising. Everybody who’s upset about this Facebook, Google, I’ll just name the two big ones there. Businesses are based on advertising. So that’s why there’s a clash, right? That’s where the conflict comes from. That’s where this whole thing stems from. And so as consumers have said, and that’s us, that’s you and I as well saying, Hey, we’d like some privacy, you know, we don’t want our data sold to everybody.

Um, What apple said, they said, okay, great. We’re we’re into that. We like that idea too. And we’re going to make it easy for you to do that and to protect yourself Facebook and Google, of course, her at the other end of the spectrum, they w you know, whether they’re evil or not, or whatever that is, is totally different.

They’re definitely not evil in my view, because they’ve made a lot of. That I know in ourselves, a lot of money with the ability to advertise, but the reality is culturally we’re at a, at a point where we’re saying, what are we comfortable with? And so that’s the big that’s what’s happening here. But functionally, what apple is doing is it’s turning off the ability for cookies, certain types of cookies on your computer to track.

And that’s what it boils down to.

Jon Tromans: I mean, this is really dangerous. I mean, I mean, when we, when we put, put everything into the scale, the scale of danger is what apple are protecting us from. Is it actually actually dangerous?

Sam Ovett: You know, I think it is actually dangerous. Yeah. And I say this why? Because there was a, there was a.

I feel like an inflection point prior to it was, it was when the last election in the United States was not this past election, but the previous election where Donald Trump got elected, that was the inflection point. It was that buildup to that election. And it was happening on both sides. Just one side happened to do it a little bit better because what happened was it was around that whole Cambridge Analytica.

That was really what brought it. Show ahead. This stuff was happening prior to that. They’re not the only one. But I, I do know someone who’s not worked for, but worked with Cambridge Analytica. And, uh, one of the interesting things here is that if we break down culture into the different component, parts, culture is affected by people and people are affected and influenced by their thoughts.

And so, yeah. Uh, savvy advertiser is contracted by someone to like a political organization. And it really is both sides, uh, here in the United States. So to speak, I’ll use that terminology then. And they want to influence in a certain way to have an outcome happen, which is what you hire agencies, marketing agencies to do.

Usually people are like, well, I’m just selling products, right? Yeah. But the bottom line is like, if you’re trying to sell an ideology to get people persuaded, to do a certain thing, then the way you do that is by influencing the thoughts of individuals who then make up the larger thing that we. You know, our culture and our society.

And so it seems pretty benign, but then when you look at it through that lens and you say, wow, I can find the people who have all these different associations and preconceived notions potentially, or more readily persuaded the internet doesn’t provide a good filter for what’s true. What’s real. What’s not.

And there’s. It’s also a lot of times we look at the things on the internet through a vacuum. Um, you know, we’re not, it’s not exposed. So to speak to the public light where it’s brought up in some like discussion group amongst people who can say, wow, that’s really a crazy thing to think about. It is clearly not good for society.

Um, it doesn’t happen that way. Right? We’re we’re in a vacuum. We’re looking at the screen. We can go down all kinds of rabbit holes. So the reality is there is I think real data. In having a lot of access to people’s information, if you want to use it for, um, for, for, you know, bad so to speak or what is perceived as bad from one person’s point of view.

And I think ultimately if it makes society more, uh, stressed and conflicting against each other, well, it’s not really the world. I would be super, you know, I’m not super excited about living in that kind of. So I do think that it has, it actually is dangerous in that.

Jon Tromans: There seems to be kind of two levels of, of, of privacy going there.

There’s kind of like the, the Facebook and the Google level of it placing people into cohorts and they understand political bias. They understand, uh, gender, what gender you, you, you, you report yourself. If I say that they understand everything to do to do with you, but then you’ve got the other level of it, of your small, medium.

Little business and the marketing person sat there, who just wants to know if, kind of like the email campaign they sent out has converted into some sales that’s right. And we’re stopping the tracking, blocking the tracking is stopping both of that. Isn’t it?

Sam Ovett: That’s right. And so that’s, that’s the downstream effect, you know?

Yeah. So the downstream effect and the, and I think from a danger level, we’re talking danger of the way that we. Evolve as a culture and a society in a global world. Now it is, yeah. This isn’t going to take somebody’s money out of their bank account. Like they’re not going to steal your name, you know, like Google and Facebook have no incentive to, to hack your bank account or anything like that.

Cause that’s what people I think about. I think when people think about data and privacy, they immediately go to, oh, somebody going to hack my bank, accountants, do my money or something like that. Yeah. And the reality is like, those companies have no incentive to do that kind of thing. And they have all the incentive to protect the data that they do gather from other people who would have an interest in doing that.

Cause that’s not a good business model for an advertiser. But what people don’t think about is the, the like slow shift in culture that can be occurred. So that’s just, just to reference back to that now you’re right. As, as, as, uh, someone who’s sending emails, if we, if we like take it out of that and we just go, like, I just want to sell it, send some emails.

Cause I’m not sure sell some more of my product. That’s not harmful to anybody. Right? Yeah. Um, or my services that is completely impacted. From the traditional way of, you know, marketing, right? Where does it start? Where do you start with your metrics on email marketing? You send an email and you go, did anybody open it?

Right. That’s the first step. If nobody’s opening it, then nobody’s going to click and nobody’s going to become a lead and nobody’s going to buy, however, prior to this open rates have been kind of a junk metric for a long time. And. This just accelerates, it puts it a little bit more in the front of our mind.

It does also functionally reduce the ability to tell if certain people are opening an email and if open rates are what you think they are, but the reality is open rates of beds, uh, pretty quarterly definable metric for a long time. And in fact, and I’ll give you this like little snippet that people can check with whoever they’re sending emails through.

A lot of times open rates are not even unique. Right? So there’s that if you go John and I send you an email from my company and you open it twice, it’s going to report that as being open twice. Well, that doesn’t tell me if I have a list of, you know, 10,000 people. I just use that as an example. I don’t really know what volume of list is opening it.

If John opens the email seven times, you know, that’s kind of a junk metric to begin with. And then I take that to the. To the meeting with the executive team and I go, Hey look, our open rates are. Yeah, generally, that’s a good sign because people are interested in it more, but the bottom line is it’s kind of a junk metric to begin.


Jon Tromans: Yeah. And then you’ve got the scenario that out of your 10,000 people, that could be 2000 to those who’ve left the company who it’s, they’ve given you a Gmail address that they never ever track, or it goes to a Hotmail account that’s just designed for them. And all of those will never, ever open your email.

And that again, affects that open rate figure.

Sam Ovett: Isn’t it? Right. If you’re looking at it percentages versus raw numbers. Yeah. Yeah. The deal with the apple thing is it’s actually more important for advertisers in my opinion, who need to track leads and sales data where they’re using pixels. Sure. It’s not as important for email marketers.

Like I think you can largely ignore it and what you should pay attention to is, are your number one. Like if people click through that metric should largely, still be true. Yeah. And that’s generally the action you need people to take. Anyways, you needed them to click on something in that email and take that action to get to the next step that may be in your case.

If you know, maybe that you’re having somebody re opt into another yet another thing, or you’re asking them to buy something. Um, and generally if you’ve got them already on your email list, you’re usually asking them to buy something.

Jon Tromans: Sure. So, so we’re still going to be able to track people clicking and ending up on our website, for example, that’s right.

Sam Ovett: Largely you will still be able to track that, which is going to be really beneficial. Now, there are certain situations where that won’t be possible, but the large majority of that information is still going to be available.

Jon Tromans: Right. So, so basically on a technical side, what apple have done have messed around with this pixel of them?

They, because there’s a little kind of invisible pixel displays. When you open an email a little bit of like the Facebook pixel, I suppose, that says it’s been opened and an apple messing with that pixel on though.

Sam Ovett: Yeah. That’s really what it boils down to. And I can, in addition to this, I can share some things that you may want to put in the show notes for that I’d recommend.

The bottom line is. You’re still gonna be able to attract those clicks. What happens is like the third party pixels, like a Facebook pixel on your website, pixel, and things like that. Those are getting blocked a little bit more, um, as terms of that data going back to you, but the ability to, to track clicks inside of, you know, most.

Email marketing systems today, they can tell you how many people clicked on something in the email and that is still going to be available. Yeah. And that’s the information that you want to know. And then from there, your next metric is, did I get a sale and you’re not going to lose that information right now.

What people are losing is the ability to send, to capture that information. With a third party pixel in the cases where people have decided to opt out and it’s largely people using their phones when people do stuff on their phones, because if you’re on an iOS device, an apple device, that’s where a lot of times you’re gonna lose track of it.

Cause it natively open stuff up in safari, which is what the majority of people do. Um, you’re always going to have your exceptions, but the majority of people, when they click on a link in their email, it’s going to open by default into a safari browser. And then. You know, people would probably see it.

They probably, they get a million notifications, but they probably saw one that looked more like from the phone that basically said, do you want to opt in or out of tracking, but it defaults to making it to where you’re opting out. So instead of you having to select, otherwise, it’s kind of set, it’s kind of automatically selecting for you that you want to opt out of tracking.

Now, if you’re on a, on a Google Chrome browser on your computer, For example. Yeah. You’re still gonna see that tracking happen. So what, what you want to think about is where do I have third party pixels and where am I reliant on those third party pixels for my data. And so that’s why it’s really more important for advertisers because as an advertiser, and I’m just going to make the comparison to someone who’s running ads.

If you’re using pixel based tracking to send the sales data back to Facebook or Google. That’s where you’re going to lose track of the sale back to your app platform. Sure. If someone one’s opted out of this tracking, so that’s the big thing that said, I kind of think it’s a bad way to track to begin with.

So. There are now alternatives that have been here the entire time that most people didn’t use should have been using, but they didn’t. To send lead and sales data back to the platforms.

Jon Tromans: Explain a bit more about that because this doesn’t affect any of the tracking on our own websites. Does it? That’s still out.

Yeah. Yeah. That’s

Sam Ovett: still yours. That’s still yours. That’s right. Yeah. So,

Jon Tromans: so, so we could put a load of UTM parameters or something and still track, uh, a goal in Google analytics from an email campaign. That’s fine.

Sam Ovett: Yep. That’s largely fine. So

Jon Tromans: it’s the getting the stuff back into the ad for the ad platform.

So you can work out whether what you’re spending is actually. Yeah.

Sam Ovett: Yeah. And also it, you know, that information. So let me just walk through a scenario because I think that helps. And then we can come back and talk about emails, but largely the scenario here that we’re dealing with is that what’s going on.

Let’s say I run an ad for my company and we I’m just going to give an example because examples help. We sell sunglasses. We don’t actually sell sunglasses, but let’s say we sell sunglasses and I run ads for sunglasses. I get somebody to, they buy some sun. They go click on that. Ad. And they opt in for like a 10% coupon and I take them to a thank you page and I show them some more sunglasses, right?

Yeah. So that’s a pretty common scenario. You have some kind of coupon and then what I would then have to do if I wanted, if someone has opted out of tracking, I would need to send that lead information from wherever I captured that I need to. And I’m not going to get super technical here unless you want me to, but you, cause that’s like a, it can go for a long time, but I want to send that lead information back to Facebook.

Cause um, let’s talk about Facebook in this case. Let’s say I’m advertising on Facebook for these ones. Yeah. I want to send that lead information and all the different technical pieces of data that need to go back for it to match up back to Facebook and say, Hey, Facebook, that ad just got me a lead.

Here’s the lead and their unique ID that you assign them from Facebook when they came over and then Facebook can go, oh, based on that. Let me see if I can find you some more people who are likely to opt in. And so that’s what happens in the perfect world what’s happening now is if you aren’t sending that data back through, like from the system that you’re capturing the lead or the sale into, from a server, typically people use a pixel.

So that, that information is captured at a pixel sent immediately back to Facebook. And you don’t really have to do any technical work other than get that pixel on the page. On the thank you page. Yeah. So now that is being blocked, that pixel in the situation where people have opted out, because it’s a third party pixel from Facebook, trying to send data back to Facebook.

Yeah. So that’s, what’s being blocked. You can still capture that data in your system and send it back to Facebook. If you want them to help you find better leads that. And then the next step obviously is sales. It’s just a repeated process just when somebody buys. So that’s, what’s going that’s, that’s the impact.

Right? So that

Jon Tromans: makes sense. That feels so it’s kind of like. If Facebook are doing the pixel business, it’s being blocked, but if you’re doing the pixel business, it’s not, yeah,

Sam Ovett: exactly. It’s an easy way to think about it.

Jon Tromans: Um, and then how do we get that information from your website to back to Facebook or back to Google ads or whatever?

Have they got plugin software bits, scripts, codes, whatever issue

Sam Ovett: there. Sure. You sure can do it. Something I’ve been focusing on recently because of the nature of what’s going on here. So it’s been top of mind, um, what happens is when that information of the person who became a lead for your sunglasses company, right?

Yeah. If you are set up in a way, somewhere, that information goes somewhere for most people. Yeah. And when you get that lead, what you need to do. You is, you need to take that information. And there’s a, there’s a handful of different ways to do this, but you need to take the information and you need to send it back to what’s called Facebook’s API, basically the back backend of Facebook.

And you want to say, Hey, Facebook, I got a lead. I got all the information, all the technical information from their browser and stuff like this to tell you who this was. And then you send it back to Facebook and Facebook. So. And you, you would use what’s called the web hook to send it. That’s one of the ways to do it.

Um, for those who are familiar with that, they’ll recognize that. And you’re sending the associated information in a string over to Facebook and Facebook receives it and says, thanks for that sunglass company. You know, we are, we now know who on our platform, who the Facebook user was. And we have all this other information about them, right?

How they use the platform and what their interests are and stuff like that. We have that information from these people on Facebook, and you just told us that they became a lead for sunglasses. So now we know they’re interested in sunglasses, let us use our algorithms. You know, it was all happening super immediately, but let us use it our algorithms and see if we can put this ad in front of more people that our algorithm thinks is going to be similar to who.

Just became a lead show. And then if you, the more of that data that you have, the better, the smarter Facebook is going to be, and the better quality of leads, they’re going to be able to put your ad in front of, and if you also send back sales data, it’s matching that as, oh, this person became a lead and then B they became.

And they’re able to help you, uh, get better leads that turn into

Jon Tromans: sales. So I take it. We’ve not got to write a bunch of code we’ll have you

Sam Ovett: do. And that’s, that’s the, that’s the part that sort of, yeah. I think is going to slow people down and see other, so the other thing, the impact outside of just this is that if Facebook doesn’t know what is a good lead and what’s a good sale.

Your ad costs are going to go up because it’s going to spend more money, trying to find the people that are useful for you. And remember this is across the board. So everybody advertising used to be sending information back, and that was all part of someone’s. And I’m just focusing on the Facebook example, part of someone’s Facebook profile, the information Facebook had about them.

They knew these people bought these kinds of things and took these kinds of actions. Now the data is less rich. Because everybody who’s opted out and opening stuff up on a apple device or an apple browser isn’t getting. And that doesn’t mean like, like I’m on a Mac book right now and I have Google Chrome open I’m being tracked.

Yeah. So, but if I had safari open and I had turned off tracking there, I wouldn’t be tracked. Yeah. The rich amount of data in the world being sent back to Facebook from advertisers saying, Hey, this person became a lead. This person became a sale is going down. Yeah. So if you don’t continue to send your information back from purely a marketing perspective, societal issues aside that this causes you.

Are now saying Facebook. I don’t, I can’t tell you who became a lead in a sale. So just keep running the ads to the audience. And that’s what happens when it comes to email and it

Jon Tromans: will be wasted running. Yeah. And

Sam Ovett: when it will be wasted. So that’s the reason to sort it out. And everybody’s technical configuration is going to be a little bit different based on what system they’re capturing the lead and the sale information.

Sure. So the process to send it back over is a little bit different. If you’re using, if you have an app, let’s say you have in-app purchases, you know? Yeah. And stuff like that, or your people are downloading apps. That’s going to be different than if it’s all web based, like browser based. Yeah. But when it comes to email marketing, it doesn’t matter so much because you sort of should have given up on, in my opinion, using open rates as a metric a long time ago.

And you should be looking at clicks and obviously like conversions to leads and sales. And if the, if that is leading to what you need, then you are good to go. And there’s there’s tools out there. That I truly recommend people use if they’re doing, if they have a serious setup going on, you know, and this is where they drive their revenue from.

Sure. That allow you to like, without a ton of code, once you set it up, it, it reliably is getting that information back to you. And it also. Most people, most companies that I’ve encountered, they don’t send the lifetime value information back about a customer to add platforms anyways. So like, let’s say I buy those sunglasses.

They’re going to record that first sale. And the good ones will send like the, okay, good ones. You know, companies will send it back to Facebook and say, Hey Facebook, we got a sale. It was this much value. Yeah. And Facebook like, cool. That’s great. But what they won’t do is, you know, they won’t send back the fact that I bought also a sunglass case, like I came back for another purchase and bought a sunglass case and that I bought some of like the retainers, maybe for the sunglasses, you know, cause I’m going on a trip on a boat or something like that.

True. And all that information. If you set it up in a way or use a third-party system where all that data is going back now, you can really start to understand, oh wow. I could spend a lot more money. To acquire a customer because they spend, you know, three to four times what the initial sale is in this amount of time.

And most people don’t send that information back to Facebook. You can, but most people don’t.

Jon Tromans: I think it’s important. The lifetime value of a customer is really important are working out that, that, that return on the investment. Isn’t it? Because it might, it might cost you, I don’t know, 20 pounds, $20 to get a 30 pound $30 sale.

But if that’s 30 pounds, $30 sale comes in. 10 times over a period of the next six months then yes. Willing to

Sam Ovett: think a lot differently in what you spend to acquire a customer. Yeah,

Jon Tromans: absolutely. Yeah. So, so, so let me get this right. So it’s pixels from other people which are being blocked. W we can still track stuff on our own websites and send it back to Facebook and send it back to Google ads and things like that.

So we can work out, uh, how much out I just

Sam Ovett: have to convert. What I’ll use the word like through the API. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Versus through a pixel show. Yeah. And that’s the difference? It used to just be easier. You’d put that little pixel on this page and it picked up the information in the cookies and send it back.

Now that’s, what’s, that’s largely what’s changing. And I think it’s going to be a moving target. You know, um,

Jon Tromans: you mentioned some tools which could be useful. What, what are they so

Sam Ovett: tools that can be used? One that I really like is a tool called wicked reports. Right? And you can look in that category of tools.

I just happened to work with that one heavily, and that allows you to do much more easily, all this, you know, you go in and you authorize your Facebook account and you. This is my Facebook account. You just sign it and it’s really easy. And then you put this there, script all over your site, and now what’s happening is that data is immediately getting captured back into wicked reports.

Right? And then wicked reports is doing the CIR, the work to send it back through the server, through the API. To Facebook, to Google and let them know what’s going on. And it’s also looking inside of your order system or your payment gateway. If you don’t have a robust order system and saying, wow, Individual is, you know, this is the lifetime value.

This is the return on your ad spend. And also from an email perspective, you’re able to, if you use UTMs appropriately and emails, meaning all your links have UTMs. Yep. It’s able to give you reports on which emails are closing business. What was the last email someone touched before they became a lead or became a sale?


Jon Tromans: that’s important. Isn’t it that’s really.

Sam Ovett: That’s super important. That is the most important, because if you can understand that if, you know, if you have built a bunch of automated emails or manual emails and you know, which emails are driving conversions. Yeah. Boy do it again. I have a duty. Yeah. Or like, let’s say you’re running some kind of webinar, which is a common thing.

Yeah. And you send an email out to register people on your list for that. And then they buy. Don’t you want to know which one, what language cause people to register that then bought that’s that’s the magic. You don’t care if they opened right. You care if they registered them, but opens a good first step.

It’s a little bit frustrating to lose that kind of information. But I think the takeaway for people is that it largely was junk data for a long time way before this happened. If you had no open rates and then. Lots of open rates. You were headed in a better direction. Yeah,

Jon Tromans: yeah, absolutely. I could talk for Amazon about this.

So could I, I could, we could just go on forever. Um, if anybody needs any help, tell us where we can find you. Um, where’s your website, social media bits and things.

Sam Ovett: Yeah. So, you know, the easiest way to find this is mobile pocket office.com spelled out like it sounds, and there’s a button on there to, to book a call.

And, you know, there’s a chance if you go there, you see an ad from us, the following you’re on the internet. If we, if you haven’t, if you haven’t blocked all the tracking. And, uh, but that, that said, book a call and, and let’s see, you know, describe the challenges you think you think that you’re having, that can be automation or in this case, this can be tracking.

Cause we’ve really, really gone into this side of tracking. Automation really being able to send that data back. And so you can understand not only creating an automated customer journey, but really, um, tracking that journey. And we do work in different time zones. I know you’re in the UK, so I’m sure we have some listeners over there and it’s not foreign to us.

We, we do. Uh, globally with people. Um, but, uh, yeah, reach out this stuff is complex and unfortunately I wish it wasn’t, but it’s, it’s pretty unique to each setup that people have in terms of their technology stack. And this is the kind of data that if you have it right, you can truly make data driven decisions about your marketing.

If you have it wrong, you are at worst. Making no decisions and at best making decisions with errors.

Jon Tromans: Yeah. So thanks for your help. Appreciate I’ll leave links to everything in the show notes where folks can just tap on it and go those straight away. Um, thanks for your time. Really appreciate it.

Sam Ovett: Thank you.

I’ll leave people with one more little thing, and that is that if you don’t want to deal with any of this, at least make sure that, you know, No. If you look at your entire business, the amount that you spend is less than the amount that you make. If you have no other metrics, just how much did it cost and how much did you make if you make more and it’s profitable, keep doing that.

Jon Tromans: Absolutely. Some thanks for your time. Really appreciate. Thank you. Thanks again to Sam for his time. If you’ve enjoyed this episode, you can subscribe for more. There’s a lot more, there’s like over a hundred of them. I know. And check out all the previous episodes on apple podcast, Spotify, your favorite podcast player, just search for not another marketing podcast.

Thanks for listening.

If you answer yes to one of these questions.

  1. Need to fix your business and get a life? 
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Here’s the solution: Understand what your process looks like to acquire a customer. By making a map of each and every step a customer takes in your funnel. Then reduce any mistakes they can make when entering information.

Easier said than done. Traditionally this is called Business Process Engineering and we at Mobile Pocket Office have taken this concept along  with Six Sigma and LEAN manufacturing concepts concepts to improve a business … aka be human where it counts, otherwise automate!

Just because your business is still afloat, doesn’t mean it isn’t taking on water. But you probably already know this, and that’s why you are here. Identifying that there is a gap between where you are and where you want to be is the first step, but what are the next steps? Mobile Pocket Office is leading the way in helping new and established businesses augment their human and technological resources to leverage growth and streamline productivity.

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